2 Men In Black and White: An Honest Conversation

MARK HAYES (00:01.998)
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Two Men in Black and White and Honest Conversation. And folks, you know, we've been here for a little over a year now as YouTube and Riverside promptly reminded us. And we got to thinking about some of our past conversations and what, if anything, we've accomplished this past year. And looking back, wow, we got to wonder.

Did we accomplish anything? We're asking ourselves the tough questions today as it relates to one year in black and white of honest conversations. Brock and Ellis, my co-host and my partner in crime joins us from the beautiful confines of the Upper Hudson River Valley, just north of New York City. All right, Brock, let's get into it. First of all, have we accomplished anything? What did we

do. Did we did we inform people? I feel like based on our feedback, we've been able to give people some entertaining, if nothing else, conversations.

BROCK GANELES (01:15.825)
I mean not necessarily informative. We'll start with entertaining. Well, Mark, I remember we first started and you called me up and it was just two weeks after the Trump inauguration, right? And you're like, Hey, you want to talk about things? I don't know. Maybe you just had a sense that I was probably bouncing off the walls as you were. And we had that first conversation that had nothing to do with a podcast. was really just venting about the

MARK HAYES (01:16.268)
Heheheheh.

MARK HAYES (01:27.278)
All right.

MARK HAYES (01:33.155)
Yeah.

BROCK GANELES (01:41.553)
disaster of staring at what was going to be four years of another Trump administration. How are you going to make make it through and and lament and questioning how bad it could get. Right. And then after an hour and a half conversation, we were like, oh, let's talk again tomorrow. Right. And tomorrow became the next day and the next day and the next day. Right. And then we did it almost every day for this last for this last year, mostly to keep ourselves sane. And we just lobbed it out there and said, I wonder if anyone else even tune in. Right.

MARK HAYES (01:46.702)
Thanks.

MARK HAYES (02:10.166)
Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (02:10.668)
Um, and if you recall at the beginning, we were going to rename the podcast, know your enemy, because we're really focused on combating Donald Trump and the MAGA movement and what we could do to resist against the MAGA movement. But I think we realized after a couple of weeks at looking at politics and society, we realized that we, saw it through different lenses, through different eyes, that even though we'd grown up together and been friends for like 50 years, that we.

MARK HAYES (02:38.965)
I'm sorry.

BROCK GANELES (02:40.907)
We just, we got siloed, our lives went different paths, society looked at us differently and we couldn't help but have a different viewpoint on the events that were going on around us. as MAGA is a white supremacy movement, obviously the events of the day affect us and our families and our communities in different ways. And that, that became more

MARK HAYES (03:02.488)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (03:04.065)
the focus of the conversation as we went forward. I'll turn it back to you in a second. And if you recall the thing that we kept harping on in the spring, that's worth revisiting were two main things. How do we, our goal maybe was how do we get a unified resistance to Trump 2.0? How do we get white blacks, Latinos, LGBTQ, Native Americans, Asian Americans, all out there together against MAGA?

MARK HAYES (03:31.97)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (03:33.945)
And because we saw that that wasn't happening and we never seem to get together because race gets in the way of everything in America. It's like this ridiculous hurdle. We never jump over. So we kept asking, is there a message? Is anyone delivering a message that unifies us? Are there any leaders that are really step forward that are unifying us? And as I look here today,

MARK HAYES (03:42.37)
We'll

BROCK GANELES (04:03.373)
I don't think the message has been delivered yet. There have been inklings of it, of a more pro-immigration message and the like, but I don't think the message has happened. And I actually don't even really think like a clear leader, maybe it won't be one. I think we've learned the leadership is coming from the bottom, from rank and file, not from the top. So that's kind of been my read on where we started.

MARK HAYES (04:24.77)
Yeah.

BROCK GANELES (04:31.033)
and what we were looking into and like if that's the yardstick then we haven't accomplished it yet. Still optimistic white guy here. I still believe you can have

MARK HAYES (04:39.016)
Right, right Well, i'm a little older than you and not so optimistic But you know we get on that point we kept asking You know, where's our nabal knee? Where's our you know, zelinski? Right. Where is our leader? Who is going to emerge? where where's

You know, Mrs. Navalny, Yulia Navalny, who, you know, was right there with her husband in the fight and took up the mantle as soon as he died. You know, that horrible death up in that, you know, penal colony out in Siberia or wherever he was. You know, we never thought that we could end up in a position where we needed a Navalny. Even with our history, even what Dr. King went through,

even with the civil rights struggle that has gone on here since Reconstruction. mean, it's been since slavery was abolished that the struggle has gone on here. And now we've taken the people, and I don't know how many of my white brethren and sisters know, but African Americans are not the largest minority in America anymore.

Right? And that is our Latino brothers and sisters. Right? And I don't know that people fully grasp, you know, that fact because again, we are still having our neighborhoods over policed, right? Over prosecuted and, you know, constantly being penalized.

BROCK GANELES (06:28.311)
Bye.

MARK HAYES (06:33.302)
Right when I moved to Detroit in 1998, they did not have one major supermarket chain within city limits Couldn't get fresh food fresh meat fresh fresh vegetables fresh fruit You got it from bodegas Right or else, you know the motor city you didn't have a train didn't have a transit system The buses ran, you know, whatever they felt like it. It's motor city. They wanted everybody to have a car So if you didn't have a car You were screwed

Right when it came to just shopping for everyday necessities, so we were still living Under those kinds of conditions and you know our goal You know as it developed, you know We looked around and realized nobody to look like me and you was having a conversation To try to find common ground and i've been telling people for years. I remember I started trying to explain

you know, the OJ verdict and the reaction of Howard University students. You know, I'm a proud alumni of Howard University. Howard University students cheered at the verdict. They didn't Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown being murdered. They did not cheer that. They cheered the fact that there was finally an African American man who was able to manipulate the system

that has treated African-Americans so unfairly for so long, but OJ had enough money to manipulate the system, to buy enough defense that he could out-lawyer the prosecution, because that's all he did. So I remember trying to explain that, and that's when I started trying to, let me help you understand Black America and why we feel the way we do.

BROCK GANELES (08:15.563)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

MARK HAYES (08:28.718)
And that's how this conversation started. you you have opened my eyes to things about, you know, Jewish Americans and, you know, things I never understood. I was like, how do people know who's Jewish? Like, I'm looking around at, you know, at our high school. Like, who's Jewish? How do you know? Oh, he's Jewish. You can tell. could just tell. What do you mean you can tell?

BROCK GANELES (08:45.292)
Ha

BROCK GANELES (08:54.357)
Yeah, you don't always know.

MARK HAYES (08:56.042)
Yeah, like I'm like, what are you talking about? Like I see white people. So, you know, it's it's it's been eye opening the last year. The things we've been able to share and learn from each other. And and that to me is the value in what we do.

BROCK GANELES (09:15.625)
I think I've been able to have more self-reflection and learned more. think just black people in America in essence are forced to learn white people and interact with white people because white people have the power and the jobs and positions of authority. to navigate America, you can't avoid white people if you want to move and succeed in America. But if you're a white person, you can avoid black people and you can still achieve and succeed in America.

So I think it's more open eye opening coming from my side. think I learned more from that. think we talked about a lot of not wanting to, you know, as a white person, you know, apologize for being white, which I'm never going to do apologize for slavery that happened way before I landed on this planet. So like, can feel bad about it, but I personally, you know, not going to apologize for it. The country should apologize for it, not me as an individual, but it really opened my eyes to, to recognizing what a comfortable,

MARK HAYES (09:54.242)
ridiculous.

BROCK GANELES (10:12.051)
member of complacent white America that I was right. How easy it was to just not be empathetic and worry about what's going on to the others because it's not happening in your community, which interestingly has changed in the Trump 2.0 era because when there's two white people getting gunned down in broad daylight in Minneapolis, then all of sudden

MARK HAYES (10:15.849)
Yep.

MARK HAYES (10:26.583)
Mm-hmm.

MARK HAYES (10:35.618)
Hello.

BROCK GANELES (10:37.045)
All of sudden that over policing is now coming to the white neighborhoods and white communities. So it was eye opening being. And but I still think part of the problem in America is there's still too much complacent white America. I see it in my own friend groups, right? People who still one year into Trump's second term haven't felt impacted that much, right? With the Pam Bondi mentality. Well, the Dow is still at 50,000, so everything's fine.

MARK HAYES (10:43.426)
Mm-hmm.

MARK HAYES (10:57.825)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (11:03.789)
And I think what ties into that as we've kind of really have examined something that is still a part of America, but is starting to thaw, which is kind of the toxic selfishness of everyone. if it's not impacting me and my day and my bank account and my neighborhood and shrug the shoulders, you know, it's their problem. That's really kind of the way white people have felt most about most civil rights issues.

MARK HAYES (11:03.971)
Yeah.

MARK HAYES (11:14.488)
Yeah.

BROCK GANELES (11:31.765)
which is why we're so woefully unprepared for fighting for civil rights ourselves. know, white people have never had to fight for civil rights. This is the first time we're fighting for First Amendment rights, right? Second Amendment rights, Fourth Amendment rights, I can't even name all the rights that white people now have to fight for because this white supremacy, of autocratic movement that's coming for, for all of us. On that front,

MARK HAYES (11:35.662)
Hmm.

Right?

MARK HAYES (11:54.158)
All right.

BROCK GANELES (12:00.141)
white America is starting to come around and white America protested, albeit quietly and, you know, mildly orderly, right? But in pretty good numbers. Didn't even need any place. Three guys eating donuts on Fifth Avenue and the one that I went to.

MARK HAYES (12:12.46)
Yeah.

MARK HAYES (12:17.07)
Didn't even need the police.

MARK HAYES (12:25.975)
Hup! Hup!

BROCK GANELES (12:26.871)
But at least they came out, started to send it, you know, started to show, and then got really, really strong, you know, in Minneapolis to where we are today, where I'm now feeling really good about where, you know, a portion of the white community is in pushing back and fighting for the others for the first time in their lives, fighting for now calling them their neighbors, not their others, but coming out there for their neighbors.

MARK HAYES (12:45.73)
Yes.

BROCK GANELES (12:54.877)
even when those neighbors are Somali or Guatemalan, you know, and that gives me hope for, for 2026, but we still haven't, we meaning white America still has not convinced black America to get out there on the streets with them quite yet.

MARK HAYES (13:14.144)
Yeah, yeah and and you know again we talked a little bit about this not too long ago because it's been a recurring theme right in all these different cities but black america is saying okay you guys ready to fight now where were you you know for the last 60 70 80 years right like we've been fighting this fight for a long voting rights you know white america never thought it was going to be an issue for

you know, white America to get their vote in. Now, you know, white women with their husbands names are going to have trouble getting to the ballot box potentially. Right. But this save act that's coming down the pike and it's sneaking up on us. And you know, how dare Democrats let this get by. Right. This this this is where we need the fight. Right. Because this impacts all of us, all of us.

And this is the, it feels like the final turn to the stretch run to authoritarianism. With this SAVE Act, these jackals, that's my favorite word for them, have going. But Black America has been so frustrated for so long. And the tipping point to where we are now was George Floyd.

which was six blocks away from Renee Good, where he died, screaming for his mother. And we watched it on television, protests all over the nation. Major corporations said, hey, you know what? We are committing to a better, not only DEI policy, but a better quality of life for Black America, right? Because they understand, you know,

Oftentimes, I remember having these conversations with my dad in the early parts of my career. Hey, know, last hired, first fired. That's the story of us. And he's right. It happened to me several times, last hired, first fired. And all of these firings impact maybe two, three generations of African-Americans.

MARK HAYES (15:39.286)
So, you know, we're making less, we're typically worth less. You know, we typically are running into barriers to education and to progress, you know, that our white brothers and sisters are not dealing with. And then we see others, right, our Latino brothers and sisters, our Asian Americans, with businesses in our communities.

Right? And so we're, wait a minute. I applied for a loan, a small business loan. couldn't get one. How'd you just get here last year and you got one? Right? So those are the things that have us frustrated that we're wondering, okay, so, you know, is there a slice of, you know, the American dream of even available for us before we go out here and put our lives on the line again?

Right? Because we saw the difference in the response to African-American protests versus white protests. Remember the gas cans? Can't we just shoot them in the leg? And you know, can't we just shoot them? You know, Donald Trump and his merry men. There were adults in the room. There's no adults in the room now.

BROCK GANELES (16:50.209)
Yeah, look Jan six. They didn't even use their firearms, right? I mean what only a white crowd would get treated that way one of our One of our viewers ghostface killer just put up a good chat and then we're maybe I didn't explain it, know Strongly enough typical white guy right didn't come strong enough. So it's not about applying Apologize for slavery. It's it's about the perpetuation of the racism through to death like it just that you know and

MARK HAYES (16:55.042)
That's it!

MARK HAYES (17:16.543)
system.

BROCK GANELES (17:17.599)
And yeah, and that's what we've talked about, you know, just to be more clear about no one has yet delivered a message that's unified everyone because no one's delivered a message saying that when we get through this, when we defeat this MAGA white supremacy movement and have a next iteration of America, it has to be different. It has to be truly fair, truly equal with truly

equal opportunity because yeah, white people came out for the George Floyd protests and argued for gun control and argued for better policing, maybe getting rid of that qualified immunity, lost most of those battles, right? And some corporations were like, know, NFL put no racism in the end zones. And there was all window dressing type of support, which faded with time. And then it was gone a year later and it was like, it didn't happen. It was back to where it was.

MARK HAYES (18:13.282)
Go!

BROCK GANELES (18:16.041)
And this time on the brink of or having already lost our democracy and white people seeing how easy it is for their rights to get taken away and how easy it is for them to get over policed and brutalized and killed and then have to deal with the absolute bold-faced lies about what went on. Right. We didn't believe black people when their kids were getting killed. Right. Because it wasn't on video. We see how easy it is for the authorities to lie.

MARK HAYES (18:35.406)
Yes.

MARK HAYES (18:45.948)
Yep.

BROCK GANELES (18:46.021)
that it has to be a better iteration, a more true, equal, fair America. That's where politicians are falling down right now, because none of them are saying that. They're not inspiring black people to come out with this, because if I were in here, she's, I wouldn't believe it, because I've seen like the fits and starts, or like the, you know, kind of the false support, or the short term support at best.

MARK HAYES (19:10.871)
Right?

BROCK GANELES (19:13.465)
And we have to absolutely attack the economic system because the income inequality isn't just between billionaires and everyone else. It's between white and black. It's another chasm. so, we have to address those issues. That's something hopefully we've tried to advance that conversation in this forum. Maybe it hasn't gotten anywhere yet.

MARK HAYES (19:24.855)
No.

MARK HAYES (19:37.054)
Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (19:41.793)
We haven't accomplished anything yet, but you have to start talking about shit before anything gets done, right?

MARK HAYES (19:47.374)
Yeah, and you know, we talked about, you know, the income inequality. We talked about Boston, Metro Boston, and how the average black family there was worth $8.00 zero cents after a deep dive, you know, by the government officials there. Citibank had done another study.

that said that what $16 trillion in wealth was lost because of racism between 2000 and 2020. So 20 years, we've lost $16 trillion because of our racism. But, and to some it's still more valuable than $16 trillion, which we don't get. And you know, it's funny, I know I say this often, but

You black people were deemed lazy once they stopped working for free. Right? And so we're not saying give me handouts. That's never been the case. My father worked two jobs and had three master's degrees. Worked two jobs, got up in the middle of the night and went to work the group home and then worked as a principal during the day down there in Tarrytown and Irvington in New York. So, you know, look.

It you can't call me lazy, you know And and then tell me i'm not working hard enough When i'm out here busting my hump just trying to get a piece And I can't the banks are telling me no Right. I can't have this house or maybe you can get it But your interest rate's going to be a little higher, right? And and again this gets back to what ghost face killer was saying. It's the system Right because the system told my father the same thing

can't count your wife's income because she's a childbearing age. So yeah, you're not going to be able to qualify for that house you want up there in Peekskill. Right? And it was only through the good graces and my dad's mad faces at work that one of his coworkers recognized what was going on with him. I shared this story with you before, and he was able to get a mortgage through her husband. And so when we look...

BROCK GANELES (22:04.439)
Yeah.

MARK HAYES (22:11.424)
It's it's a constant struggle Right, and it's it's it's it's two steps forward and three steps back, you know, which is what we saw with george floyd Right and even the outrage Right. There were black folks who were saying man. They probably gonna get away with it You know, even though it's on video like, you know, it probably probably still you know, the cops probably not gonna go to jail You know, it probably got the police officer for tamir rice that was on video He didn't go to jail

You know, and so we wonder, right, that, you know, who do we turn to? Where do we go for help? Right, when your life can be snuffed out in a moment's notice and there's no consequences of repercussion, you know, why, why didn't they just comply? You didn't hear black people saying that about Alex Preti.

BROCK GANELES (22:59.103)
Yeah. Exactly. And I don't know how we walk back from Alex Pretty and go back to where we were because once white people have seen that and see how easy the lies were and so easy, like one of their own can get gunned down in broad daylight and still be lied to. Bold face. Why would we will never will question authority the rest of our lives and why would we not?

MARK HAYES (23:10.22)
Mm-hmm.

MARK HAYES (23:15.234)
Yup. Yup.

BROCK GANELES (23:24.257)
think that black people are telling the truth when they tell the stories about police brutality and the like coming out this. I do think I do think this Trump era has changed us forever. I hope it's for the good. You know, like we're still in a battle of white supremacy versus American democracy, even the old version of it. But I do think we can come out of it much better. I think we have to demand that of politicians. think we all now understand how policy matters.

but not just policy, but like implementation of policy. they have to, you have to keep an eye on it 24 seven, right? It doesn't work by itself. It just doesn't work by itself. It's easily corrupted, right? We're, we're overwhelmed with corruption right now. And we see how easy it is.

MARK HAYES (24:02.573)
Yes.

MARK HAYES (24:06.37)
No.

MARK HAYES (24:12.502)
Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (24:14.657)
There's still people in the absteam files. They're just still walking around going to work the next day, still making their millions and billions as if nothing fucking happened, right? No accountability.

MARK HAYES (24:20.789)
They're chameleons!

MARK HAYES (24:25.964)
Yep, and the media is complicit, right? The media's telling of stories, the media's painting pictures of the African-American foil, the media's constant depiction of black bad, white good has been one of the biggest hurdles to overcome.

BROCK GANELES (24:55.7)
Of course.

MARK HAYES (24:56.098)
You know, know, Byron Allen, who has, you know, secured billions of dollars worth of media properties is still fighting in court trying to get his programming aired on different networks around the country. Every place he turns, black entertainment, television is not even owned by black people. It makes no sense. Like where do we go with our stories?

BROCK GANELES (25:21.933)
Yeah, and it's gotten worse. And it's gotten worse. It's gotten more consolidated. It's gotten more right wing. It's gotten more right. It's a more narrow view. But I think maybe we'll come out of this also with independent media. know, big, you know, Don Lemon's brand blew up. You know, they talked about backfiring, right? Midas Touch, maybe there'll be more independent media. People will stop being, you know, there's a laziness too, right? I've just, you got to find it.

MARK HAYES (25:27.287)
I'm nervous.

Thanks

MARK HAYES (25:39.374)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (25:51.519)
right now. have to go away from the major networks. You have to almost behave differently than you used to to find different stories and different angles and in essence different news as well. All those things we've learned over the last year. The other thing I think one thing that we tried to think we stumbled into trying to accomplish was

MARK HAYES (25:59.212)
Yep. Can't trust it.

BROCK GANELES (26:20.525)
this theory that quote, it's the economy stupid because it worked in the 1980s and that the only thing anyone cared about was their, much money they have in their bank account. And all these quote other issues were secondary and barely made a ripple. And, you know, it was a frustration even in the 2024 election, would calm all of it. It was just so much the economy, the economy, the economy.

MARK HAYES (26:24.886)
Ugh.

MARK HAYES (26:38.667)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (26:47.597)
And now, and we were argued for living room issues that like, it's not all kitchen table issues. It's other things in people's lives matter to them. Freedom, democracy, voting rights, a sense of fairness in America. And then I think it took almost the atrocities of ICE to kind of prove that point. Cause now I believe that people's, most Americans view of wanting their fundamental rights.

MARK HAYES (27:06.978)
Yeah

BROCK GANELES (27:15.989)
and want them being enforced properly has moved to the top of mind for everyone. And hopefully that stays with us, because I'm tired of us just being toxic capitalists, where all we ever talk about is how much money we have instead of how great a society we have. And I think we can get to if...

MARK HAYES (27:19.201)
Right.

MARK HAYES (27:22.881)
Right.

Right.

MARK HAYES (27:37.174)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

BROCK GANELES (27:43.157)
White people are out there saying, I'm out here in zero degree weather in Minneapolis getting fucking gas canisters shot at me and paintballs, you know, off of my kneecaps because I need to be out here for my brothers. That's a great step. And there's a great video of a guy today who said he's out there for his first protest ever because he saw a bunch of seven and eight year olds running from their elementary school, running away from ice.

MARK HAYES (27:50.528)
Yeah.

MARK HAYES (27:58.828)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (28:10.561)
And he said, this can't be happening in America. And he got out for the first time saying, this isn't who we are, right? That classic, this isn't who we are. And you know what? It has been who we are. So it'd be nice to know that's not who we're gonna be, but at goddamn right, it's exactly been who we are.

MARK HAYES (28:13.951)
America.

MARK HAYES (28:21.182)
No, it's who we are. Right.

MARK HAYES (28:31.072)
Right. And you know, and that's the frustration of Black America, right? We know it's who we are, because we experienced it, we lived it, right? And only two generations ago, you know, were we being terrorized in the South by men with hoods on, you know, people were being strung up from the highest tree available, right? We're still getting reports of hangings, modern day lynchings.

We've got museums dedicated to the terror that African American families went through in the early 1900s. Black Wall Street, Rosewood, all the many, many towns that were burned out and mass murders took place during the terror. So we know it's who we are, but only now are we having the discussion. And that's upsetting.

know, Brock, to see that the country that, you know, we, I mean, no one has a problem with us going to war and dying for this country, you know, but then when we come back, you know, we can't get mortgages, we can't get the mental health services we need, we can't get jobs, you know, we're second class citizens. So the frustration lies in seeing our white brothers and sisters fight for some of the others fought for us.

But now what seems like a half-hearted gesture because remember what happened to all the money that was you know Delegated to the DEI initiatives. Donald Trump said that needs to go away. So it went away Right. So Donald Trump Donald Trump is like suing Nike right now for hiring too many brown faces black faces, right?

BROCK GANELES (30:18.49)
Even though Phil Knight's pumping money into the GOP, right?

MARK HAYES (30:21.878)
Right, right. Still ain't good enough for Trump. Right. So, you know, it's it's it's it's that frustration. It's that complexity, you know, that that black folks are confronted with when it comes to getting out there on the front lines, because we know the response to our presence is different than the response to your presence. And and that's why, you know, so many black people are saying, look, white America put this guy in office.

Right white america is gonna have to get him out 85 percent of black men voted against trump voted for kamala 92 percent of black women Voted for kamala You know, so yeah, so, you know, i'm still seeing a lot of you know, we're gonna sit this one out and White folks created it. Let them fix it

BROCK GANELES (31:13.729)
Yeah, I-

There's nothing wrong with a gauntlet being thrown down and putting it into white people's court, at least to like fight the first, maybe it's the first 14 rounds of the 15 round fight. You know, people like me were too complacent. I can, if I'm trying to accomplish anything here also, it's that like as a white guy, you can listen.

MARK HAYES (31:27.565)
Mm-hmm.

BROCK GANELES (31:38.027)
to black people. can you can not just discount it right away. You can like think about it. can self reflect. It doesn't crush you doesn't change your life. Right doesn't cost you anything to actually think about like how you can be better tomorrow than you were yesterday. You can't

MARK HAYES (31:49.494)
Right, right.

BROCK GANELES (31:58.785)
You're in the cock back and rewrite your life, right? But you can do better. You need to be better tomorrow. You can be more aware. You can be more fair. You can be think about things in a different way because your eyes have been opened a little bit more and it's not a zero sum game. You know, if other people's lives get better around you, doesn't mean that your life gets worse because that's not the way it works. Right.

MARK HAYES (32:21.46)
Exactly.

BROCK GANELES (32:23.765)
We already live great lives in America. most of us, certainly most white people. So it's all right. You know, and it's OK to want and to think of people as their neighbors and say, want them to live a great life also in the way culturally can be different. We can have our differences, but our differences don't have to be like a chasm. can't get over.

MARK HAYES (32:47.266)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (32:47.617)
Why can't we appreciate people's differences? That's why we travel around the world. We travel other countries and we're excited to be at these places where things are different. So we can survive it. We can survive our differences. We're have to wrap here in a second. I think I'm battery dying on me a little bit, but.

MARK HAYES (32:57.366)
Right? Hell! You know...

MARK HAYES (33:08.342)
Yeah, well, just one last quick point, know, even MAGA embraces our differences. They love Mexican restaurants, Chinese restaurants. They love them, right? But then they want to grab the workers out of the back and ship them off to someplace unknown. I mean, it's ridiculous. So yeah, man. Yeah, we're going to continue the conversation.

BROCK GANELES (33:22.103)
Yeah. It's absurd. Yeah. So, yeah, we're going to continue the conversation because the conversation is worthwhile. So Mark, we started with, have we accomplished anything? We've accomplished that one thing.

MARK HAYES (33:39.246)
You're right.

BROCK GANELES (33:39.361)
that we've proven that the conversation can be had on serious topics, not just sports and entertainment. can talk about serious topics that affect our have affected our lives and are continue to affect our lives in different ways. You more than mine and how America has, you know, attacked your people and advantaged mine. And we can talk about it honestly and think about how we can come out of this.

MARK HAYES (34:08.929)
Right.

MARK HAYES (34:12.366)
All right, we may have lost Brock there with his power going down, but folks we're going to continue the conversation right here. We want you folks again to share this podcast with your friends, neighbors, family, like and subscribe. We're trying to get to 5000 subscribers before we hit the summer. So help us get there. We're doing pretty well right now. We're at about 1235 subscribers. We want to get to 5000. So help us out. You know, tell a friend, tell two friends.

And we appreciate you folks watching us each and every day. Ghostface Killer, appreciate you. And all the rest of you folks that weighed in on the chat this evening. And we will see you right back here next time, right here on Two Men in Black and White, an Honest Conversation. Have a great weekend, folks.