2 Men In Black and White: An Honest Conversation

Mark Hayes (00:01.773)
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting edition of Two Minute Black and White, an Honest Conversation. All right. Brock and I are old friends. We are your hosts. We played high school basketball together and grew up together in the Upper Hudson River Valley where he still resides. We bring you an Honest Conversation. We're on audio as well as YouTube. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, and of course, Apple Podcasts and

some other locations where you might find your favorite podcasts. All right, we want to get right into it today. We know Trump is still out there, blobiating on 15 % tariffs and wrecking our economy, but we've got a bigger fight going on. In Texas, on the Democratic side, we've got two really able-bodied candidates that are really drawing some lines in the sand among their supporters. Brock, what do you make of what's going on out here with Telerico?

versus Jasmine Crockett.

BROCK GANELES (01:00.946)
You know on the left as progressive where I put myself D on the deep left left of Elizabeth Warren, you know, we'd probably be advised not to talk about these primaries because it could divide the resistance at a time where we need to be as unified as possible, which I agree with. However, this is too big a battle to ignore and

As the white guy in the discussion, you might find it surprising that I'm not a Talarico guy. And I know he's become this darling of the Democratic Party, but not where I sit. First of all, and I also, I love Jasmine Crockett. I think she deserves the seat because she's earned her stripes in Congress fighting battles.

Mark Hayes (01:38.889)
Mmm!

BROCK GANELES (02:00.59)
in public against Trump one on one, basically risking taking the risk that so many others don't want to take. so I'm firmly in, in Jasmine's camp and I, I just, I'm just the Talarico type of politician doesn't resonate with me. And part of my problem with it is the message carries too much religion.

Mark Hayes (02:08.972)
Exactly.

Mark Hayes (02:22.412)
Mmm.

Mark Hayes (02:29.654)
A lot of religion.

BROCK GANELES (02:29.96)
And I'm just from the school and I know what's his name and George Warnock does as well. And I don't love, I don't care that he's a preacher. I just, I like his policies and I like Talarico's policies for the most part, but Talarico leads with the religion way too much for me. And I'm an absolute separation of church and state guy. I don't care how you got to your positions. I don't care what you do.

on your Sunday mornings. don't care what faith you are.

Mark Hayes (03:01.99)
Mmm. Mmm!

BROCK GANELES (03:02.982)
I don't, I don't want it as a part of the discussion when it comes to governing. I want, we're a secular society. So being better at religion than the other guys doesn't, doesn't rope me in. Like I want an absolute separation of church and state. So I don't like the Talarico is so encased in his religious discussion and doctrine and all that stuff.

Mark Hayes (03:28.554)
in religion.

BROCK GANELES (03:32.018)
doesn't work for me. so I'm just not there with him the way many other Democrats are. Where do you stand? I know you're more religious to me, I believe, but I won't speak for you.

Mark Hayes (03:36.426)
Well...

Mark Hayes (03:43.167)
Well, you know what? I don't like the, I think Tallarico and Warnock were two different animals, right? They may be cloaked in the same cloth, but I think that, you know, Reverend Warnock understands the assignment a little bit better than Mr. Tallarico because it was perfect. Mr. Tallarico can lead with religion, right? You can talk, you know, about religion. It's not gonna make a difference in Texas, okay?

You're not changing any hearts and minds in Texas with religion. They're just not gonna do. We just talked about a guy who shot his daughter because they had an argument over MAGA and he's not being charged. Okay, this is the time for fighters. This is who we want. know, Calarico is best known, you know, as you aptly put it, for tying his positions to the Christian faith and

And oftentimes quoting Jesus, right? Jesus is not coming to save us right now, right? In the immediate future, I don't think we can count on Jesus. We need a Jasmine Crockett to stand up and continue to take the kind of risks that she has in the past, right? They've both gone viral. They both pushed back, right? But

Calarico is afforded a different opportunity because he is a white male. And I think that that's what this democratic race and the Ken Martins of the world are showing us, that our white men in the party will be shown deference versus all others. Because to me, I wouldn't even put these two up against each other. I would have said, hey, Mr. Calarico, why don't you go get some time over here?

BROCK GANELES (05:42.758)
Run for Congress!

Mark Hayes (05:43.721)
Run for Congress, right? And then come back and let's see where we are in six years, right? I mean, serve three terms. Serve your three terms. Get you some experience, learn how it all works, and then come on back and see where we, why would you put two of your rising stars against each other? Makes no sense to me.

BROCK GANELES (06:08.08)
Yeah, and look, I don't want to get down on anyone who's ambitious and says, hey, I'm going to go run. You may be ahead of when people think what I'm ready for. Obama did it. He jumped right to Senate, ran for Senate and then jumped the president. So he kind of jumped the line multiple times. So don't want to, I never want to ding anyone for that. But if you look at the resumes, Jasmine Crockett has been doing it in the Congress.

Mark Hayes (06:18.644)
Right.

BROCK GANELES (06:36.134)
and James Talarico has been doing it at the state level. And now you're jumping for the higher office, which in my mind just puts Jasmine Crockett is more qualified for the position. But what I think it's really, I mean, I've got a bunch of thoughts on this, but I think that.

Mark Hayes (06:38.602)
state legislature, right?

BROCK GANELES (06:53.254)
the party supports Taro Rico on the whole self-fulfilling prophecy of electability. So they think that everybody's racist. So therefore you got to throw a white guy in there because a black guy can't win in Texas. And because Colin Allred didn't win, then you know what? You can't run another black guy. Although he initially had thrown his hat in the ring and he stepped aside when Jasmine jumped into the race. So I hate that because if you always,

Mark Hayes (07:04.189)
Give me my guy.

Right.

BROCK GANELES (07:22.394)
try to outthink the electorate and only push forward the person you think that can win, then you're only going to have the cookie cutter candidates. that's not the way. So that's not the way it can work. My issue really, I, and second thing is I think it'll really hurt the democratic party if Talarico beats Crockett. Cause I think it'll just further alienate the base of people of color who feel like

Mark Hayes (07:25.544)
Right.

Mark Hayes (07:32.401)
Right? It's the same old candidate.

BROCK GANELES (07:52.334)
In essence, Talarico kind of got favored and got more support from the party than he should have. Now he also got a really lucky break with the Colbert thing because it got him a lot of name recognition that maybe didn't have before because he gets to be now a champion of free speech. And he played that to the hilt, which as he should have, right? He's, you know, he raised money off of it. You know, he exploited that moment.

Mark Hayes (07:59.506)
Right.

Mark Hayes (08:04.235)
That was huge.

Mark Hayes (08:21.542)
Masterfully. Yep.

BROCK GANELES (08:21.7)
as any as any good politician should. So I give him credit for that. But he did stumble into a lucky break. But my bigger issue comes back to. We're fighting, we the resistance. Are fighting a Christian nationalist white supremacy movement, one that steeps itself in like the cloak of the church.

and scripture. We constantly hearing about anti-abortion because it's true, you know, to where this whole Christian nationalist movement has gone from being a religion to being a political movement. Right. So I don't want candidates that are out there out, you know, religioning out, christianing out, you know, kind of parsing the words of the good book in a different way and interpreting it.

Mark Hayes (09:08.496)
Hehehehehe

BROCK GANELES (09:16.646)
to differently to get to a different place. I, as someone who is not religious at all, basically would put myself in the camp of being an atheist, although I still consider myself Jewish because that's a heritage that's more in my mind. That's more the people I come from versus the religion itself. I don't know the good book that they're talking about. So when Taurico is in there talking about scripture and why arguing against

Mark Hayes (09:19.185)
Right.

Mark Hayes (09:30.214)
Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (09:45.064)
Christian white nationalism and how they've taken the word of the Lord in the wrong direction. They might as well be talking Latin because none of it connects with me. I just don't even want that to be a part of the discussion. So I don't want candidates on the left who are playing that game. I want them to just say, we live in a secular society. didn't care that Joe Biden went to Catholic church every Sunday. Good for him.

Mark Hayes (10:12.026)
Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (10:13.788)
for him. Guess what? I did not care what Joe Biden did for an hour or two every Sunday morning. Didn't matter to me. He could have gone to the gym. He could have been meditating. He could have been doing Tai Chi. He could have been, you know, reading a book. I don't care. All I care about is what, how's he doing as president? How do I feel he's leading the country? How do I feel about his policies?

Mark Hayes (10:20.881)
Yep. Yep.

Mark Hayes (10:39.002)
Right. And you know what, Brock, in the Black community, we call Sundays the most segregated day of the week, right? Because we found so much strength in the church, right, during the civil rights movement, during Jim Crow. Remember, there was a time not too long ago when we were all relegated to the same places. You know, we didn't have a lot of options.

You know, we weren't free to just pop into this department store, that department store. So, you know, when you talk about the church, it has a different meaning, right? We don't see the church as a black power movement. We find strength in the church for survival and a place to go and get healed and to uplift ourselves in our community.

from the pain and hate and violence that's been brought upon us. Remember, black churches, you know, were targets of destruction just like every other black entity during Jim Crow, during the civil rights era. I mean, the 16th Street Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. I mean, in Birmingham, Alabama. One of the most famous, you know, infamous church bondings ever.

just a disgusting act of domestic terrorism. So, you the church has a different meaning to us. And when it becomes, you know, when Reverend Warnock is talking about political issues in the church, he's not trying to, you know, tamp down Black power. He's trying to say we need to fight for ourselves and our rights.

You need to pay attention to what's going on. Hear me now from the pulpit. I am warning you that this is coming, that is coming. Our rights are being violated, right? Because a lot of time, this is where the message came from. Dr. King is the originator, right? If Dr. King could have run for office, I mean, at a different time, it probably would have been perfect, right? If he had gotten into...

Mark Hayes (13:01.382)
some sort of political position. But I say that to say, these are two different candidates. Remember, a Democrat hasn't won a Senate race in Texas since what, 88? 84, 88? I mean, it's been a minute. You know, they're 40 year old kids. Right?

BROCK GANELES (13:19.943)
I can't even remember. I can't even remember the last time. It's so long ago. I absolutely can't remember.

Mark Hayes (13:25.807)
And we have, remember we have 4 million African-American, African-American citizens in the state of Texas of voting age. Now you put that together with your Latino brothers and sisters, okay? That should be a tough fight, right? Especially considering how difficult MAGA has made the quality of life for Texans. And remember.

No state income tax in Texas, right? So when the price of goods and services goes up, you really feel it. You really feel it. Because they hit you with the tax. So when prices go up, the taxes are getting higher, it seems like. And your property taxes, you know, you got to make repairs to your home. Think about it, Bob. It impacts every purchase you make.

BROCK GANELES (14:22.492)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Hayes (14:23.107)
in a state like Texas, when the economy goes into the shitter as it has. and there's no more, well, it might. No, it's in the shitter. We know it.

BROCK GANELES (14:33.884)
Yeah. Mark, when I, as a non-religious person, when I, my view of when religion organized, when organized religion is working best is when the temple, the church, the mosque, you name it is a, in essence, a community center and becomes a place that people feel comfortable and get away from the loneliness, right? Like there's a, there's a, you know, the

Mark Hayes (14:54.49)
Yes.

BROCK GANELES (15:03.068)
community is just the best word for it, right? Outside of whatever the scripture is that's talked about, just as a place that people can come and gather. And they do say with the decline in religion in America, it's actually made communities less tight and in, know, because people don't see each other as much because they're not going to church. So I do view that as, you know, the main, a great benefit as a, you know, rec center, community center, you know,

Mark Hayes (15:19.363)
Yep.

Mark Hayes (15:24.25)
Yep.

BROCK GANELES (15:32.604)
part spiritual part, just making friends and feeling supported type of type of area. But as you started, we're talking about Texas specifically. It got me to thinking again, as you were throwing the statistics out there that it's, it's the Latino vote. That's going to make the difference. Which way are Latinos going to go? And they, do tend to be, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, more religious than maybe even like your

Mark Hayes (15:52.121)
That'll be it.

BROCK GANELES (15:59.804)
garden variety white person or your garden variety black person in America. so maybe that's why they pushed Tal Rico, you know, to move quicker. Maybe that's why he thought he could win cause he could get that vote. but I'm just, I guess I'm just disappointed with so much of the discourse is about like religion and scripture and race.

Mark Hayes (15:59.898)
Yes.

Mark Hayes (16:03.711)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mark Hayes (16:21.925)
Race and race, yes! Yes!

BROCK GANELES (16:24.786)
You know, and they don't want to say it. mean, Galerico made an offhand comment about Colin Alred that fell flat and I'm sure alienated the black community. I mean, I want this primary to be over basically. You know, it's already going on too long in my book. guess turnout's really strong early, but it's only the 21st of February and it's not till March 3rd. So there's like 10 more days to go. But I wanted to lay it out there and talk about it because

Mark Hayes (16:38.296)
Right.

Mark Hayes (16:43.126)
Yep. March 3rd.

Yeah.

BROCK GANELES (16:54.065)
I think it's a really, really problematic race for the left to come out of it feeling, you know, more disunified.

Mark Hayes (17:03.47)
Shortchanged. We're getting shortchanged.

Yeah, yeah. And see, MAGA is playing on that already. That's where race is being injected into this, right? Because MAGA is using this as a perfect opportunity to sow some discourse in terms of Black versus White. And they want to portray, know, Jasmine Crockett is loud and uneducated and all the stereotypical tropes.

you know, that are associated with the African-American experience in America. know, Tallarico is refined, he's religious, he's well-spoken, he's a good guy. You're a good young man. know, meanwhile, she's loud and boisterous and she's not educated. She's part of the most educated part of our society right now.

BROCK GANELES (17:50.32)
Yeah, such a fine young man.

BROCK GANELES (18:04.774)
Yeah, she's a lawyer, right? She went to law school. mean, come on. The other issue is that it will be such a loss to not have Jasmine Crockett on the front lines of this fight in a seat where she commands, warrants, deserves, and then executes on the attention that she is given, right? We keep talking about her as like, in essence, a close second to AOC.

Mark Hayes (18:06.654)
He's a lawyer by trade!

Mark Hayes (18:15.658)
Exactly.

Mark Hayes (18:27.92)
Right. Right. Right.

BROCK GANELES (18:34.412)
as like, you know, a spokesperson for the Democratic party or the progressive part of the party that, you know, I think we both sit in.

Mark Hayes (18:39.236)
Yeah.

Mark Hayes (18:44.799)
Right, absolutely.

BROCK GANELES (18:46.492)
So we can't afford to lose her. So I really want her to win because of that. And I'm like, Talarico can find another seat and find another place. You know, he's only a state senator. He can find another role, you know, but and plus I want her on the campaign trail all of 2026 against Cornyn or Ken Paxton, right? Like I want her out there because she's such a great communicator. She'll do more for the party and

Mark Hayes (18:56.917)
Right.

Mark Hayes (19:06.276)
No doubt. No doubt.

BROCK GANELES (19:16.078)
she will just be a visible representation of a more unified party. Otherwise, just another white guy out there. Just another white guy running like, you frankly, my book, just another boring white guy out there running like, okay.

Mark Hayes (19:22.709)
Exactly. Right.

Mark Hayes (19:32.003)
Yeah, and he is not going to, in my estimation, in Texas, bring the brown vote out, black and brown. I don't know how he goes down to Friendship Baptist Church and excites the crowd and makes them want to run out to the voting booth and vote for him. I don't know how he goes into Houston and gets people to stand on those long lines or

know, leave their ballot box at the one drop off, male drop off that is for the entire county that the city of Houston sits in. Is it Harris County? I forget the county it is. But.

BROCK GANELES (20:14.052)
I think it is Harris County. Well, we're going to see, Mark, because turnout's huge in the primary already early. So we're going to see if this is a huge turnout primary. And we're going to see if Jasmine Cross gets theory that candidates like her can energize the base and get and lead to huge voter turnout holds water. So all right, we got 10 more days to, you know, to chew on this one. I'm going to be watching it really closely.

Mark Hayes (20:20.172)
Yikes.

Mark Hayes (20:30.348)
Thanks. Right.

Mark Hayes (20:34.946)
Right.

Okay.

Mark Hayes (20:43.475)
Absolutely.

BROCK GANELES (20:43.72)
And like I said, I want Jasmine win for a lot of reasons. I don't want to have to listen to Talarico talk about the, you know, religion for seven months. And I want Jasmine out in front of every camera that will take her. Cause she delivers the message so well and so aggressively.

Mark Hayes (20:56.66)
Right. Right. No doubt. All right, big day tomorrow. We're going for the gold. USA versus Team Canada. Who you going with?

BROCK GANELES (21:13.128)
I'm going for Team Canada. Elbows up. The women, kind of, I rooted for the US women. That was one of the great hockey games like of all time. And, but I think Canada deserves a big win on the global stage against us. So nothing against our players, but.

Mark Hayes (21:15.21)
Elbows up, baby.

Mark Hayes (21:20.63)
They were awesome.

Mark Hayes (21:24.364)
For sure.

Mark Hayes (21:36.225)
Yep.

Mark Hayes (21:40.118)
Well, you know, I-

BROCK GANELES (21:40.432)
I want Canada to, they've earned it.

Mark Hayes (21:45.011)
I, you know what, I was all on board with the men the other day against Slovakia and then they cut to one of the booths upstairs and Mike Arruzzione was up there. And you know, I got a bone to pick with the 1980 squad for being on stage with Trump, wearing the hats. Exactly. Exactly. Makes no sense whatsoever. So Team Canada, elbows up. Looking forward to seeing Nate McKinnon and the boys, you know.

BROCK GANELES (21:55.687)
Yeah!

BROCK GANELES (21:59.592)
Yeah, they're pro-Russia now, right?

Mark Hayes (22:14.1)
No diss to this team of great American players. You know, the Kachuk brothers, the Hughes brothers, you know, they got a great squad there. But you know what? We got to pull for the underdog. You know, we got 330 million people in this country. What does Canada have? 10 million? 15 million overall? I mean, and they're still, you know, the best at the game when it comes right down to it. So.

BROCK GANELES (22:36.424)
You

Mark Hayes (22:43.943)
know, we'll be looking for it. Go for the gold. You know, we went either way.

BROCK GANELES (22:48.52)
I wanted to be a great game. hope it goes overtime like so many of other games did. Like it's, you know, it's been exciting. It's been, yeah, that was fantastic. It's been a good Olympics. This will be like the, really the last event of the Olympics. So, Italy did a good job with it.

Mark Hayes (22:54.123)
That'd be nice. That'd be nice. The women's game was unbelievable.

Mark Hayes (23:02.73)
No doubt.

All right, Gotta do it us tonight.

BROCK GANELES (23:07.624)
All right, Mark, always a pleasure. We'll pick it up again tomorrow. Just a quick tidbit. Everybody stay safe up here in the Northeast. Rumor has it we have another, another blizzard coming our way tomorrow. Another could be a foot to foot and a half again. Again, I still have a foot of snow on the front yard that hasn't melted yet, even though it was 40 degrees today. Another foot and a half, man. You pray for, pray for my back.

Mark Hayes (23:12.725)
Sounds good.

Mark Hayes (23:18.914)
Oof.

nor Easter.

Mark Hayes (23:27.114)
Wow.

Mark Hayes (23:32.161)
Lord. Lord.

BROCK GANELES (23:37.192)
I can get out there shoved with. So anyway, nothing else to do but do a podcast with you tomorrow. We'll tee it up then. All right, Mark, always a pleasure.

Mark Hayes (23:43.039)
That one's good. All right, talk at you. All right, see you buddy. Peace.