2 Men In Black and White: An Honest Conversation

Mark Hayes (00:01.518)
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting edition, Two Men in Black and White, an honest conversation. And honestly, today Brock and I just got out of our editorial meeting and we were back in our silos, if you will. I was invited to speak at Undo Ordinary Global Ministries. Brock visiting with family and friends, one very white audience and constituency.

And for me, one very black audience and constituency. Although we did have a white drummer on the praise team, and they were killing it. They were good. so Brock, let's get right into it. You know, I my my my the subject of my talk today at church was about, you know, strength, love, and resilience. Love of each other, strength in this unprecedented time.

That we have well we faced other hurdles and challenges as black folks, but none since we've become a civilized society. And the resilience, our ability to get over and get through and get past this nightmare that we're living right now. I I I I felt well received by the audience.

You know, when I mentioned the fact that we're blacker than we've ever been, folks were were like, yes, we are. Yes, we are. And that is because we are seen as a bigger threat than we ever have been before, because the media has played into the Trump narrative, because you know, the the the administration has gone after black and brown people.

in an unprecedented way. And you know, because, you know, we have seen what, three hundred thousand black women removed from the workforce on purpose. That wasn't just a happenstance. so what was going on in your world?

Brock Ganeles (02:16.621)
So it's interesting, right? 'Cause I'm with, you know, old high school friends that you know very well, but like white crew of friends, you know, I'm always struck at how, like, kind of I don't wanna say totally dis no

Disinterested? They won't hear this for this exact reason. Disinterested in the podcast, right? 'Cause we're talking politics and social issues and like we're talking like the ugly underbelly of America, basically on a daily basis, and having a conversation about the topics that most white America certainly doesn't wanna talk about because it's like, why do you have to talk about race? Like that's like a downer for white America.

Mark Hayes (02:42.252)
Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (02:55.662)
Right. Right.

Brock Ganeles (02:58.723)
But in our circles everyone's doing fine. We're not under stress. We're not worried about things. There may be head shaking and anti-Trump sentiment.

But not to the point where there's a huge motivation to do something about it. We weren't talking about protesting and getting out there on the streets and like overthrowing this white supremacy government. so yeah, it's just like a a different world. You know, I did have the one person who's interested. you know, we got in a conversation on the pod, and

She's like, you're still doing that after a year. We hadn't talked about it in a year. And she was the one that had said, well, how well who cares if you kind of agree on things? Like, it wouldn't it be better if you went on and argued on every show and took an opposite position? You know, and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna be Tucker Carlson just to try to make a good podcast. Like, I don't that's not how I think. But I said, you gotta understand, the whole point is that me and Mark may sometimes end up at the same place. Like we may have both voted for Kamala Harris.

Mark Hayes (03:47.158)
Right.

Mark Hayes (03:53.965)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (04:03.651)
But we got there from very, very different places and maybe for very, very different reasons. First of all, I didn't go to college with her, but but and that goes through every aspect and I I hit her with the for instance.

Mark Hayes (04:11.256)
Right.

Mark Hayes (04:19.47)
Okay.

Brock Ganeles (04:19.851)
Are you worried are you worried about being kicked off the voting rolls here in Westchester County, New York, to the point where you're gonna get scrubbed off the voting rolls and show up at the local polling place and won't be on there and because your vote got suppressed, New York State's gonna elect a Republican MAGA governor and MAGA state Senate that is then gonna push through

Taking away abortion rights in the state so that your daughters now don't have bodily autonomy. Like, is that something that you think about and worry about? And her answer, of course, was no. Because we white people, just like me, I'm not worried about getting kicked off the voting rolls. I'm not worried that that's gonna happen. But I'm like, hey, Mark's down in Georgia, and he's black, and you better bet in his circles.

They're gonna fight tooth and nail to try to win the governors because the last time Kemp kicked hundreds of thousands of them off and Stacy Abrams didn't win. And more f and more fuckery went on because of that. Like, so we don't have the stress of fighting for our right to vote. We just don't. No one's coming after our vote. They're coming after Mark's vote.

Mark Hayes (05:17.997)
Right.

Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (05:31.938)
Yeah. I'm already

Brock Ganeles (05:32.717)
You know, so I'm I just told her it's topics like that that we're not gonna talk about here and don't even think about and aren't stressors on our lives. But the room you were in is like when you say blacker than ever, you're like, we're fighting right, we're fighting for basic rights again.

Mark Hayes (05:36.087)
Right.

Mark Hayes (05:41.101)
Right.

Mark Hayes (05:49.772)
Right. I was also in a very black silo last evening, an organization called Jack and Jill, which is a national organization of young African American men and women, well, teenagers, college bound, almost a hundred percent. and I made a joke about there being

Probably five hundred people. I was the MC for the botillion, which is the coming out of these twenty-four metro area African American boy boys to men. And I made a joke about there being some illegality to this many African Americans in one room. And everybody kind of said, Whoa, right, right? But they knew what I was getting at. And you know.

It's sad that in 2026, you know, we're having that conversation. Like, is there too many of us here? You know, is there is there something wrong with us putting on display black excellence? Right? You don't have those conversations at white events, right? You don't worry about the news crew showing up to cover white excellence because they will.

You know, the only way we're gonna get news coverage for large gatherings of African Americans is if there's a shooting or some sort of disaster, right? Some fight, you know, so the the door gets rushed. But you've got beautiful black men and women from all walks of life, doctors, lawyers. there was young one young man last night there.

And again, this is something else that doesn't happen in white silos, but there was a young man there who will be the third generation at Georgia Tech. His grandfather was one of the first African American students to integrate the university.

Mark Hayes (08:05.356)
That's not ancient history, Brock. That's the early 60s. His granddad, one of the first people to integrate Georgia Tech. Huge institution, right? Known for its athletics right now, right? But in the early 60s, shortly before you and I were born, we were having fur, we're still having firsts.

Right, you know, there are parts of Georgia where they are still having separate proms, black proms and white proms. So you don't have to worry about those conversations. I I I I'll never forget, you know, moving to Albany, Georgia. Albany is famous for locking up Dr. King during the civil rights struggle in the late 50s, early 60s. And my dad sitting me down.

After I had packed my trailer and and tied it up to my car and hitched it up and got ready to take the two, two, two-day drive to Albeny from Westchester. And my dad said, You know, you're going to the deep south, right? I said, Yeah, what do you mean? It's you know, it's 1991. What what are we talking about here? He said, Yeah, the deep south is different than New York. He said, You're gonna see and hear things that you haven't seen and heard in your lifetime. And he was right.

You know, I was out covering news stories down there and got called the N-word by professional people. I was I was I was in my newsroom carrying equipment from the news truck into the station when one of the very popular on-air figures said, Wow, you sure are strong. Remind me of a slave my daddy had looked just like you.

Nineteen ninety one, ninety two.

Mark Hayes (10:04.93)
What do you even say to that?

Brock Ganeles (10:06.525)
I don't know. And we're there again. We're there again. Well w Well, I was saying to the wife of one of the yeah, I was saying to the wife of one of the friends, 'cause like, who's Mark again? I was like, he played on our basketball team. He was a part of this circle, just a year older. I said, but this you know, what is the pot about the sad reality is that because of the lived experience that we've had and the way society functions at us, like

Mark Hayes (10:08.726)
Yeah. And now we're right back there, full circle, thirty five years later.

Brock Ganeles (10:34.785)
We're in this room all gonna likely statistically live longer than Mark. Like it's that base level. Like our life is just has less stress and we're gonna live healthier, longer lives, even though we came from ostensibly, quote, the exact same upbringing. Right? On paper.

Mark Hayes (10:55.533)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (10:57.355)
Same upbringing, right? Same town, same school. Now we always talk about maybe different neighborhood because the red lining, which I wasn't even aware of until you told me I was blissfully ignorant for the first fifty years of my life that that was even a factor. But on paper, the same upbringing, but

Mark Hayes (11:00.942)
Mm-hmm.

Brock Ganeles (11:16.311)
You know, society didn't isn't gonna treat us the same way. You know, I'm not worried about the N-word. I'm not getting worried about getting killed when I get pulled over. I asked her if you ever been followed in the store. It's like, Of course not. We've never been followed in the store. No one's following us around. Never. Not something we're not looking over our shoulder, worried because someone's like kinda, you know, stalking us in the store like this young kid who got shot a coup you know, with the acquittal of Asian store owner, right? That's a big controversy right now between the

Mark Hayes (11:20.958)
Right.

Mark Hayes (11:42.71)
On the software line.

Brock Ganeles (11:46.197)
the Asian and black communities. Maybe we'll get back to that in a second. But I'm like, so we don't need to do a podcast that talks about the differences and does a point counterpoint and shows a black guy and a white guy arguing with each other. Like

Mark Hayes (12:00.139)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (12:01.899)
Scott Jennings and Becari sellers can do that on CNN and just play the their different roles of arguing their different points. It doesn't get us anywhere. Like, how about the fact that even people that are friends that grew up the same way still have life coming at them differently in this society? And now it's getting worse because we're clamping down on civil rights. And like

Mark Hayes (12:17.9)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah. Yep.

Brock Ganeles (12:27.533)
You know, if you have daughters, you're not as worried about them dying in childbirth if they're a white daughter versus a black daughter, right? Like base level things that are that are dish different and very few places anywhere, even when you think there's everything on the internet, there's very few conversations between black people and white people.

Mark Hayes (12:50.776)
Yeah.

Brock Ganeles (12:51.135)
that are like a real effort to understand, not an effort to debate and win a point somehow against the other. Because you win the point and then you shut off the computer and like, okay, so fucking what? No one got anywhere.

Mark Hayes (12:58.978)
Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (13:04.36)
Right. Where did we get? Yeah. Yeah. We made no progress. you know, and and and the thing that I like is is learning from you. and and to me the purpose of this podcast is understanding each other better, understanding the Jewish American culture. You know, I I didn't know that I didn't even know there was a separate culture when we were in high school between

Jewish white guys and I guess wasps, Irish Americans, Polish Americans, Italian Americans, forget about it. I d you know, I didn't even know there was a difference. Like I didn't know people had issues until we were in Florida with my white guy group and they decided we were gonna play Who's the Jew?

And and I said, What are you talking about? Like I was I had no idea what they were talking about. And it it was not flattering. Right? you can tell, you just look at I was like, I cannot tell.

Brock Ganeles (14:07.757)
And there's a f yeah, go ahead.

Brock Ganeles (14:15.149)
There's a fair amount of anti-Semit Semitism where we grew up. Certainly in some of the towns around us were really bad. But I still I w I still kind of viewed it as different. Like I would I would get anti-Semitism at me. But it was mostly just verbal. People trying to insult me. I never really I didn't re I never felt threatened.

Mark Hayes (14:19.243)
Right.

Mark Hayes (14:28.397)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Hayes (14:38.146)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Hayes (14:42.286)
Mm.

Brock Ganeles (14:42.967)
I never felt there was gonna be a violence that came with it. It was a way for them to try to put me down. It never like it didn't it never really bothered or hurt me that much because it was like it was just words and just another thing, whatever. People called me short, people called me a loudmouth, a pain in the ass. Like there was enough things coming at me, so for someone to say that I was like, you know, Jewish or this or that, like it didn't

It wasn't like an impact because I didn't feel like soci like society wasn't coming at me. And that's why I don't equate racism with anti Semitism. It's all hate.

Mark Hayes (15:11.04)
Mm-hmm.

Brock Ganeles (15:16.577)
And in some cases there is violence behind it, right? There are synagogue shootings. There are people that wanna take it to the next level and and kill Jews. I just didn't get that growing up. That's so the f I didn't have the same fear of it. And I don't think it's as big a wave. There aren't as many anti Semitic people in America as there are racist people. Like racism is a core fundamental underpinning of like a good chunk of the country. Arguably

Mark Hayes (15:46.37)
Well that's what we were built on. Yeah. Yeah.

Brock Ganeles (15:46.443)
The history all the way through. You know? So there just aren't as many. It's not as big a wave. It doesn't mean it doesn't suck. Any kind of hate speech and threatening and violence towards any group is fucked up. But nothing compares, and even from this show, the more we talk on it, like nothing compares to racism against black people in America. Asians get some racism against them, and occasionally there's violence. Latinos are getting a heavy dose of racism against them with ice and occasionally.

Mark Hayes (15:56.311)
Right.

Mark Hayes (15:59.97)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (16:16.347)
Occasionally there's violence. But the black experience, it's always been there. Like it's been a constant threat. I can't I can't imagine there's ever a time where there was a black family that sat around their kitchen table feeling like comfortable in America.

Mark Hayes (16:18.081)
Right.

Mark Hayes (16:21.633)
Right.

Mark Hayes (16:33.959)
I I'm trying to think. I don't I mean I don't recall. You know, I I although I never felt unsafe, there were times where I was concerned. You know, even even in our little town, you know. you know, aren't when when when I was a ninth grader, a freshman before you got to the high school.

You know, our ship wa our ship, our bus, our school bus was referred to as the slave ship. Because, you know, we had all all the black kids coming from our neighborhood. And that was, you know, where predominantly most of the black kids that went to our school lived. and that I'll never forget, you know,

A freshman football game in Mount Vernon where, you know, there were a lot of racist tropes being thrown around on our way down to the to the game. And we got down there and it got real quiet. And, you know, we ended up losing the game six-nothing. But it was very interesting, you know, the dynamic, you know, when we play other predominantly black schools.

you know, the kind of conversation you heard surrounding the game. but it it was different in basketball. Maybe we just expected the to play against black guys, right? but we didn't have those kind but in football, you heard you heard, you know, some obviously racist, you know, trumps tropes about our competition, you know.

Brock Ganeles (18:21.305)
Yeah.

Mark Hayes (18:23.73)
at at some of these school Osining, Poughkeepsie, any you know, any of the schools down county, Mount Vernon, you know, it was it was yeah.

Brock Ganeles (18:38.017)
It's so embedded. You know, that's why when white people are like, why do you gotta make it about race? Why do you gotta bring like why do you make it make it about race? And it's like, I'm sort of like, yeah, well, let's not make it about race then. Like, why do we have to make it about race? It's like it's not black people that are making it about race. It's white people that are making it about race, and then

Mark Hayes (18:53.634)
Hello?

Mark Hayes (18:57.463)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (19:02.999)
Complaining when there is like a counter-argument made back at them. AKA Abdul Carter. He didn't make it about race. It's Trump ultimately that made it about race, and then Jackson Dart was his conduit. Like, that's who makes it about race. The commenting about the fact that white America's made it all about race isn't the isn't the problem. Like

Mark Hayes (19:14.05)
Yeah, but yet he was gain.

Mark Hayes (19:28.471)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (19:31.669)
Are you f you know, it's just an expectation of a turn the other cheek or keep it quiet, you know, it's shut up and dribble when it's a black athlete and don't talk outside of X's and O's, but white athletes can express their their First Amendment rights rights guys. Why shouldn't they be out there, you know, saying what's on their mind? You know, they're just a double standard that we bring to the table, which is why I kinda always say

Mark Hayes (19:48.907)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (20:00.545)
if people would just take one beat before they formulate their opinion and or

speak their opinion and just try to think for a second about the lived experience of the other person in the situation or the conversation before you react. Just try to think about where they're coming from. And it doesn't mean you're gonna it's gonna change your opinion at all or your outlook. I think I like I said to you earlier, like I wanna understand this white Christian movement. Because so many people are in it and they're trying to reshape America.

Mark Hayes (20:33.326)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (20:38.153)
As I understand it, like are they religious? Are they just power hungry? Or is it greedy? Like, is it just hateful? Like, any of those don't matter to me. I still want to stomp them and overwhelm them and change and and turn this into a true multicultural, multi-racist, fair society. But I do want to understand where they're coming from. At least I just wanna get

understand it a little better to see if there's a chance that they're gonna any of them are gonna change over time or is it so embedded in them that they're immovable because I do wonder, okay, where are they all going to go?

when we have our way and we in essence quote take back control and power in the country. What is this one what is this one third of the country? What are these Trump acolytes, racist to the bone, Project 2025 heritage fund guys who are s waving Confederate flags and storm the Capitol? Like what's gonna happen to them in society when we turn it on its head?

Mark Hayes (21:24.93)
Right.

Mark Hayes (21:45.111)
Yeah, I look, I don't know. I I'll never forget I saw JD Vance on the Today Show promoting his book, Hill Billy Elegy. You know, I ordered it. I I genuinely wanted to know, you know, what's this all about? 'Cause I lived literally one town over from where he said he grew up. And that was Middletown, Ohio, you know, thirty miles north of of Cincinnati. And

You know, it was a town that had been left behind and and you know, the Rust Belt and all the industrial jobs, you know, had gone. And, you know, and I wanted to understand, okay, yeah, so those jobs are gone, they're not coming to back. But, you know, like they always say to black America, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Well, we we we've never had any bootstraps, at least in the Rust Belt. You know, you guys had those industrial jobs, right? Those machinist jobs, those great

manufacturing jobs, you had some bootstraps at least for a minute. So why did we not evolve, right, with the economy and with you know, the the the evolution of manufacturing and the you know outsourcing of all those jobs. Right? So I wanted to understand where the anger came from. You know why haven't

those jobs been replaced with resources. and I get they were, you know, left in a lurch. I get that. But black America's always been in a lurch. Right? We've always had underperforming schools, pushed into urban areas, housing projects. you know, hey, when I moved to the city of Detroit, Detroit proper did not have

A major market grocery store chain within city limits and Detroit is huge.

Brock Ganeles (23:43.031)
Yeah, highways that cut the cities in half, inevitably environmental racism, right? You got smokestacks and all the the shittiest emissions are, you know, in your neighborhood versus the other neighborhood. I mean

Mark Hayes (23:45.698)
That too, environmental racism.

Mark Hayes (23:55.939)
Yes. Look at the Bronx. Look at the Bronx. With the Cross Bronx Expressway going right through it. I mean, you don't have to look far to see these things. And, you know, the fact that white America refuses to acknowledge that these things are going on is what has, you know, landed us in this predicament. Because now there appears to be a lack of empathy. Right?

And and and w well why haven't you fixed it? Why didn't the folks in the Rust belt fix it? Right? There's a it so there's a different connotation when it comes to poor white America. But look.

Brock Ganeles (24:38.989)
Yeah, why can't farmers fix their fucking problem? What they need, they need billions of dollars thrown at them. Let's go figure it out. Find a new market. Well, we have to find it for Okay, you got fucked. okay, your guy fucked you. Like, okay. Now what? Like, it is it all of our problem? Is it everybody's problem that our farmers are getting screwed? Can't afford fertilizer? now all of America has to come solve their problem because they're feeling the pain.

Mark Hayes (24:41.599)
Exactly.

Mark Hayes (24:53.196)
Right. Well that's just why

Mark Hayes (24:58.616)
Right.

Mark Hayes (25:05.965)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (25:08.587)
I wonder if a little bit of the delusionalness of some of these MAGA types in places like Middletown Ohio Ohio react and does any element of the light bulb go on when they see Trump storm off the set of an interview today because he's arguing with Kristen Welker that the California gubernatorial race election is rigged.

Mark Hayes (25:08.92)
We have a problem.

Mark Hayes (25:33.762)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (25:34.529)
Like that MAGA guy with a Confederate flag on his truck who lives in Nebraska or Kansas. He doesn't really expect

Mark Hayes (25:42.488)
Georgia.

Brock Ganeles (25:43.501)
California to elect a Democratic governor. Like even he's sitting there going, Well like, I mean, they're all Democrats out there, right? That's why we hate California. So like, why would he think that the people would vote a Republican governor when there's more Democrats there? Like, even that knuckle-headed, MAGA, crazy racist doesn't e looks at Trump and goes like, The fuck's that guy talking about? Like, why would he ex why

Mark Hayes (25:48.128)
Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (26:08.012)
Right. Right.

Brock Ganeles (26:09.773)
Better not be a Democratic governor in Kansas or Nebraska, not here, but like California? Like, doesn't Trump expect that to happen? Like, why does Trump think that election is rigged? Like, do they even come to some understanding that even their philosophies now, their ethos, like isn't holding water? Are they? I don't know why I'm

Mark Hayes (26:14.069)
Right.

Mark Hayes (26:29.888)
Right. I bruh. I have I have I can't figure it out, bro. Like it's above my pay grade. It really is. And and you know, I it's frustrating. It really is that we can't come to, you know, some sort of understanding. But again, you know, I've said this ad nauseum on our on our podcast is that, you know, this country was founded.

on racism. Right? And and and and that is, you know, one of our you know underlying, you know, foundational pieces of this democracy. And, you know, it's why we have the prison industrial complex for cheap labor. You know, it's why we have you know poor performing schools in the inner city. it's it's it's why, you know, black America is

You know, worth one tenth of white America. You know, it's why Metro Boston African Americans are worth eight dollars when it comes to net worth. They're not even worth a box of donuts. and things are getting more and more expensive. And we're getting left further and further behind. But now, you know, Brock, I I I I just think we have to be realistic. You know, it's becoming a class thing here, right? Because where are these data centers going?

In poor rural, urban areas, right? So the one percent can make all the money that they need to, and they don't care about the impact on the environment, they just care about the bottom line and making as much money as possible and leaving out right those who are deemed, you know.

not not not necessary for our country to grow, right? Because we we don't ascribe to that whole you're only as good as the weakest link.

Brock Ganeles (28:35.393)
I I think it's a good point. The data center issue is really, really bubbling to the surface because the oligarchs, the AI tech bros who think they could take over the world and turn us into a technocracy, we don't need any of us and like they're all racist as well. They need so many data centers that it crosses racial lines.

Mark Hayes (28:56.536)
Right.

Brock Ganeles (28:56.845)
They they need to put everywhere. So it is become more of a class issue than even a race issue. Cause they'll put it in a poor black neighborhood, they'll put it near rural poor white people. They don't care whose water they're taking away. They just know they can't get away with taking the water away from wealthy people. So they're staying away from wealthy white people. No data center coming in my neighborhood. It's just it ain't coming in my neighborhood.

Mark Hayes (28:59.137)
Right.

Mark Hayes (29:10.457)
no.

Mark Hayes (29:14.69)
Right.

Mark Hayes (29:19.98)
Right.

Right. Right.

Brock Ganeles (29:23.295)
It's coming and maybe across the river or down in a more rural area, maybe ninety miles out. And that could be a black or white area. It's probably a white area here in New York, but like that's actually d New York State was the first state that's passing a law of no large data centers. One year moratorium. First state in the country to do it. They're just putting a moratorium on it. It passed the state senate. It's sitting on the governor's desk right now.

Mark Hayes (29:29.001)
Right.

Mark Hayes (29:48.728)
Yeah.

Brock Ganeles (29:49.175)
And it would be interesting to see if she signs it 'cause the lobby is so hard to get her to not sign it. But the hope is that this becomes a model for other states and they just put the kibosh on these data center. 'Cause you know, the whole state of Utah's up in arms 'cause of Kevin O'Leary's data center. And they're all white people bitching, right? It's white on white violence there.

Mark Hayes (30:05.536)
Right. Right. Right. And you know, you think you think about I don't know if you've ever been to Utah, but it is a beautiful state with with so much to see. you know, a really interesting culture because you have, you know, the Pacific American, you know, Samoan American, you have the Mormon church there, you have a lot of different cultures there. It's not just

Brock Ganeles (30:15.201)
Only been there once.

Mark Hayes (30:35.362)
You know, white America there. but you know, that's gonna be interesting to see how that whole fight pans out. It's also gonna be be interesting to see what happens with these detention centers and these large warehouses that Trump is building. Social Circle Georgia, which is straight out 20 east, headed toward Augusta, said no. Right? Because a 10,000 bed facility.

Would have sucked up all the water from the city itself. There would have been nothing left for the people that actually live there. And it was eerily the drawings, the mock-ups of the detention center itself was eerily reminiscent of a slave ship. I don't know if you've seen the drawings, but if you Google them, it'll disgust you and make you sick to your stomach. So, you know, here we are again.

Brock Ganeles (31:24.727)
No, I hadn't seen it. I hadn't seen it.

Mark Hayes (31:33.863)
we're out of time. You got a quick hit for me? Hit me.

Brock Ganeles (31:36.035)
I do have a quick hit for you. I'm wearing my Jeremy Lin t-shirt given to me by my college roommate, shout out Joe Chang, who bought this for me to make sure that I properly celebrated Jeremy Lin when he went on that crazy run, whatever it was 15 years ago. The most exciting time to be a Knicks fan. Well, now.

Mark Hayes (31:54.701)
Yeah.

Brock Ganeles (31:56.781)
but it got me to reminding Jo remembering Joe Chang, my college roommate, who taught me the number one thing I learned in my four years of college was, I guess from Star Trek, the quote, that we mock what we do not understand.

Mark Hayes (32:10.392)
Hmm. Hello.

Brock Ganeles (32:12.481)
And I was certainly one of those guys who made fun of anyone who was living their life exactly not the way I thought they should be back in those days. And Joe Chang was able to open my eyes, which leads me to the question as I wore this t-shirt, which was, Am I racist that I was a huge John Stockton fan?

Mark Hayes (32:21.228)
Right.

Mark Hayes (32:35.604)
No why? Why would you be?

Brock Ganeles (32:36.567)
Or was it okay that I just I identified with like a white point guard in the NBA who was a pass first point guard and he was a white guy in a black league and I was a white guy who loved basketball so that Stockton was my guy. Like

Mark Hayes (32:51.946)
Not at all. I mean, you know, I thought I was Eric Sleepy Floyd, my junior year. Right? I you know, I wore twenty-two like Rodney McCrae, my senior year. So, you know, it's it I I no, you're not racist at all because your game was emblematic of his.

Brock Ganeles (33:12.153)
Yeah, and that Joe Chang loved Jeremy Lin more than like Lin Sanity was like a

Mark Hayes (33:15.277)
Right.

I mean Vincent is everywhere. He is.

Brock Ganeles (33:18.029)
Phenomenon for the Asian community, right? Like, holy shit, we have our guy that's doing this. But it gets back to the conversation we had about the Naomi Osaki having that dinner with the other black athletes and that being considered like out of bounds and racist that she was just having a dinner with the black athletes. And I'm like, isn't it just h normal human nature to kinda identify with someone who kinda looks like you and you're like, maybe you I could be that guy because you know he's just a skinny white guy.

Mark Hayes (33:28.098)
Right.

Mark Hayes (33:37.454)
Right.

Mark Hayes (33:41.452)
Yes.

Mark Hayes (33:45.411)
Correct.

Brock Ganeles (33:48.003)
in the NBA, like holy shit, skinny white guys can like reach the top of the profession.

Mark Hayes (33:49.132)
Yep. Yep.

Mark Hayes (33:54.477)
Hey, A Brock, me, Rick Shelton, you know, Brian Dolman, every guy that played in Cortland Youth Football League wanted number thirty-two, right? Because we all wanted to be the Jews. Yeah. Like everybody wanted to be the Jews. I was a lineman. I wanted number thirty-two, right? 'Cause I was too big.

Brock Ganeles (34:06.304)
you wanna be OJ?

Brock Ganeles (34:12.493)
Well funny, OJ becomes a murderer. It turns like John Stockton's a crazy anti-COVID, anti-vaxxer. Like his politics are like, my God, Stockton's like probably living off the grid in Washington. Like But it's like, you know what, I gotta I'm separating. I'm being my own hypocrite here. I'm separating the politics from the player. What do you got for me?

Mark Hayes (34:18.582)
Right. Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (34:30.458)
From the player, no doubt, no doubt. America the violent, it continues. well we had a shooting in Toledo, Ohio today, twelve people shot. We had a stabbing in New York City, five people stabbed, suspect in custody. you know, and I think Brock, this trend is going to uptick.

Brock Ganeles (34:43.009)
Mark Hayes (34:57.134)
as people become more desperate, as people become more frustrated with the state of our economy and their inability to you know manage situations that were out of their control. You know, people losing jobs, people losing opportunities, you know, people just not understanding, you know.

what they did wrong to be forced to suffer. And I think we're going to continue to see this kind of thing.

Brock Ganeles (35:33.113)
Well, you think about what a stressor, right? Money problems, like the ultimate stressor. And now I say like income inequality is dangerous because people have nothing to lose. Right? A and and or they just kinda mentally break because they're having things taken away from them. And that's even worse than never having right?

Mark Hayes (35:35.586)
Right. The biggest stressor.

Mark Hayes (35:42.614)
Right. Right.

Mark Hayes (35:50.88)
Right. Yes. Absolutely. Can you imagine having your home taken away? Imagine, you know, somebody towing your car out of your driveway, right? Because you can't make the payment. Through no fault of your own. Right? That's what we're seeing right now. Remember all those federal federal workers that we saw when the Doji Bros and the Muskrats ran through the federal government? And we saw, you know, the food pantries opening up at local high schools and and food banks around Metro DC.

I mean, those were amazing jobs. Those were careers that were taken away because the apartheid guy came to the US and felt like his way was better and joined forces with a bunch of racist motherfuckers from the US. And so now our people have to suffer. Americans have to suffer.

Mark Hayes (36:46.872)
Frustrating. All right, good place to end it. great conversation, bro.

Brock Ganeles (36:49.273)
Leave it there. All right, Mark. Always a pleasure.

Mark Hayes (36:53.014)
Revolution and it shall not be televised. Peace.